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Testosterone replacement: get fit first

Right?! I am sensible. If I can get 20lbs by the end of a long cycle, I am good. 4 months is 5lb per, 1lb every 6 days. That is rational to me. I hit 40 and the check engine light came on so now is the time to get more regular blood panels drawn. Next run will have hefty EQ so I need to figure out blood donation here. Whole different lens now.
 
My opinion is 1 pound every 6 days probably is not muscle. Probably mostly bloat from fluids.
 
20 in a cycle is a lot. Arnold gained what? 40 over his career? 10-12 lbs of lean muscle In a year is incredible.
 
Telmisartan. Glutathione injections. These two things mitigate a tremendous portion of the risk we take as enhanced humans.
 
Coming up, cycles with deca, test and dbol were yielding high weight gains in as little as 30 days. Yes, much of that is water. Paul Borresen had this “wet, wet, wet stack” which was mainly EPO, B12, anadrol and test. The water retention was massive but the theory was that if you expand the size of the tank, your fish grows bigger. In this case, capacity to grow becomes larger. Say you gain 20 in 4 months then 10 of that comes off in the way of water. It is an incremental process of addition. Calum Von Moger lost 40lbs after tearing a bicep then was nearly full up round months after returning to training. Victor Martinez got out of prison and blew up within months. Casey Viator in the Colorado experiment gained something over 60lbs in that month (highly skeptical on this one). There were a few other athletes who tried to replicate results which were documented as follows:
  1. David Hudlow built 18.5 pounds of muscle in 11 days. Documented in The New High-Intensity Training.
  2. Eddie Mueller built 18.25 pounds of muscle in 10 weeks. Documented in Massive Muscles in 10 Weeks.
  3. Todd Waters built 15.25 pounds of muscle in 6 weeks. Documented in High-Intensity Strength Training.
  4. Jeff Turner built 18.25 pounds of muscle in 4 weeks. Documented in GROW.
  5. Keith Whitley built 29 pounds of muscle in 6 weeks. Documented in Bigger Muscles in 42 Days.
  6. David Hammond built 22.5 pounds of muscle in 6 weeks. Documented in Bigger Muscle in 42 Days.
  7. Joe Walker added 17.38 pounds of muscle in 6 weeks. Documented in The Body Fat Breakthrough.
  8. Shane Poole built 19.34 pounds of muscle in 6 weeks. Documented in The Body Fat Breakthrough.
I expect nothing close to these, just progress. My experience is what many would call limited, so I stay psychologically impregnable and willing to temper expectations. I would agree that what the mirror tells me is more important than a scale.
 
I’m probably the most conservative minded person here, and all I see here is far more risk than reward.
 
I’m extremely jaded and skeptical of just about all that stuff.

I’m unfamiliar with everything you listed except the Colorado thing but I’m willing to bet someone somewhere had a monetary gain from these claims.
 
Honestly, I have heard zero about both until now. Thank you for pointing those out. Gives me something to research. Man, I love this forum! Good to talk shop!
 
TBH I always questioned Arnold’s training style. 4 to 5 hours a day, 6 days a week. Compare that to Mentzer who operated way more efficiently. Dorian even who spent 30 mins or so just going to failure with heavy weight. Also, Arnold wasn’t eating nearly as much as say Cutler, Coleman, and the like who guzzled over 1k carbs some days. Trevor Smith was 400lbs. in his 30s. Arnie stuck around 250g protein while others were going double if not more. I guess it is all in what they were chasing. Arnie’s aesthetics are legendary. After Dorian, everyone chased as much size as possible. Guts were distended, calves/arms/neck weren’t symmetrical with other measurements, etc. Maybe Arnie was content at 240 and stayed there so we wouldn’t have that same comparison of accretion over time; it would just be maintenance. Dante Trudel went on record saying he got up past 240 naturally before going to gear and hitting 300. I’d never want to be that big. 230 around 12% is all and I may be overstating that. I just look at my frame and proportions. Big head, narrower shoulders so I need more on the frame to balance out. At 227, I felt full and normal. Now at 195 I feel weak and deflated.
 
I, in no way, meant to offend. I appreciate the candor as it helps me gauge the validity of my own ideas. It may be fair to say past influences have left me with semi-skewed perceptions, so it is nice to have a voice on the other side of the table. Thank you for that.
 
I’ll be the first to say that I used to train with Julian Levine. He trained Lou Ferrigno back in the 70s. He and I talked about how Arthur claimed no gear was used during the CE. Contrarily, Julie said he was physically there when Arthur injected him. So that much I know is questionable at a minimum. Calum has a documentary on Netflix so feel free to check it out. Paul’s book has been out of circulation for a long time. I will see what I can find. Believe me when I say I am a research hound and very objective. Kind of like Steve Carrell in The Big Short. In fairness, I was not present to witness so I can’t say 1 way or the other. T-nation has some articles on them, most of which fill in the gaps with genetics talk, creatine loading, and all. I really want to run a log and document everything. Diet, exercises, gear, body composition, panels, everything. See what happens at the end.
 
Haha no offense taken. I’ve got some pretty thick skin.

Search telmisartan and glutathione on the forum I’ve talked about them both a great deal. Tag me if you have specific questions.
 
gearhead80 said:
The water retention was massive but the theory was that if you expand the size of the tank, your fish grows bigger. In this case, capacity to grow becomes larger.
Click to expand...
This is an interesting theory… but I can’t quite grasp how physiologically this would be accurate.
 
I hate speculating and it is not my place to say without seeing firsthand. Hearing someone say something is one thing but seeing something objective like DEXA scans or panels is another. If I don’t see it, I remain a skeptic. I do bring up claims and theories for the purpose of discussion which often leads to healthy debate. Just my .02.
 
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